It can’t, or the math doesn’t add up. They have to be counting “Sudeten Germans.”“Sudeten Germans” had lived in the area for centuries, although only under that name after the dissolution of Austria-Hungary (As prior to that they would have been Austrians, or German Austrians). But these people were not “German settlers”, that is frankly inaccurate
Now, Sudeten Germans are noteworthy for a lot of things, joining the nazi party at a higher rate than the rest of Germany, eagerly participating in the administration of the nazi puppet state that suppressed their former countrymen, and for initially including most of the Jewish population of the area (The Jewish population were swiftly excised from the definition of a “German” even though they were part of the culture and had identified under that term).
What happened to the Germans there was fully ethnic cleansing, albeit a nicer one than half of them were going to expose their Slavic countrymen to.
I’m Czech and had Sudeten relatives that weren’t removed, the ones that voted for the Nazis had their whole family removed (my relatives voted for the “communists” as they didn’t approve of the escalation against their Czech relatives, a couple experienced racist violence due to marrying non Germans as well). Iirc only the household head could vote and they didn’t want to split families, so thats why so few were left.
I’m of partial Sudeten German heritage, and the events in the area were unfortunate and more nuanced than the different settler analogies that people on here like to present. Since most don’t really have a connection to that topic, its easy to be flippant.
Like my grandparent really only thought of Czechia as their home ever, even claiming that our family wasnt “truly german”. However by that point in time the “ethnic relations” between Germans & Czechs were so polarized, that it kinda was domed. And you dont really come back from trying to genocide your neighbours.
a lot more than just the sudeten germans. there was a german diaspora all over eastern europe, going back centuries. old german villages in hungary, romania, russia. poland of course, though there the germans were more of a colonizing force even in the past.
a lot of these german communities supported the nazis during the war (IIRC there were old german mennonite villages in the east who were supposed to be religiously pacifist but somehow found it OK to do a bit of holocaust.
some fled west during the closing months of the war. after the war, the warsaw pact countries shipped a lot of the remainder to germany (dont know the proportions of those that stayed vs those that got shipped off). the rest are still here, but a lot more assimilated.
Yes, but the Sudeten Germans are a group that were vociferously pro nazi, need to be included to get the numbers, and were absolutely ethnically cleansed.
a lot of these german communities supported the nazis during the war (IIRC there were old german mennonite villages in the east who were supposed to be religiously pacifist but somehow found it OK to do a bit of holocaust.
I think you’re mixing two things together.
You might be thinking of the Russian civil war were these groups would engage in violence against Slavs in Ukraine despite their supposed religious objection to violence. This was part of the reason for Makhno’s black forces engaging in ethnic violence against these people. However German Mennonites were not ethnically cleansed from the Soviet union. Germans were internally deported in the soviet union during the war itself (Which wasn’t great for much the same reason that the Japanese internment camps were bad), and those who moved west did so at the behest of the nazis, and Germans essentially self deported from areas that would be occupied by the Soviet union itself in actions like Operation Hannibal.
German Mennonites as far as I’m aware did not constitute a significant nazi population, but Sudeten Germans did to a grotesque degree.
German Mennonites in the former soviet union (RIP are also usually seen as a subgroup of Baltic Germans, a group that have their own weird relationship with population transfers, seeing as they were exposed to forced population transfers/ethnic cleansing by Nazi Germany.
the warsaw pact countries shipped a lot of the remainder to germany
Yes that’s why I said you need to include groups like the Sudeten Germans to make the math work. roughly 8 million Germans were expelled from Poland and the rest, apart from the Sudeten Germans, are a rounding errors in comparison. Like adding up all the population transfers, prison sentences in the soviet union and all the rest you might get to 200000 Germans in Hungary who were expelled, the most anti soviet sources give estimates around 200000-300000 for Romania from what I can tell, and in Yugoslavia those who didn’t flee with the nazi army were subject to reprisals from locals (Duh) and chose to leave when they were offered German citizenship in like 1950 but even if we count every single German as having been ethnically cleansed from Yugoslavia we just don’t get the numbers.
Germans were internally deported in the soviet union during the war itself (Which wasn’t great for much the same reason that the Japanese internment camps were bad)
The Japanese internment camps were bad because the USA is a white supremacist settler-colonial shithole and interned the ethnic Japanese because they viewed them as racially inferior nonwhite collaborators of a racially inferior nonwhite enemy who are racially predisposed to betrayal based on their yellow skin color and the latest phrenological breakthroughs in skull shape of the time.
Whatever the USSR did to their germans can’t be compared to that racist white supremacist nonsense.
Indeed, zionism is not strictly american race science and yet they are committing genocide and ethnic cleansing. However I doubt the USSR internally deported the germans because they were racist Russian supremacists. It’s a fundamentally incorrect comparison to make to a white supremacist ethnonationalist atrocity.
However I doubt the USSR internally deported the germans because they were racist Russian supremacists
They don’t need to be doing it for “Russian supremacy” for it to still “not be good” like you go off on american caliper based race science when the motivation for shuffling Germans around the USSR internally was the same as the motivation for japanese internment, that being that they “couldn’t be trusted” to not support their “homeland” against the USSR. It’s literally the same fucking thing.
They don’t need to be doing it for “Russian supremacy” for it to still “not be good”
Just to be clear, it “not being good” is an entirely different conversation to it “being the same as the japanese internment camps”.
On the point of these two events being “literally the same fucking thing”.
The amerisharts basically put all of their ethnically Japanese citizens in fucking concentration camps where they faced grave mistreatment, based on racist, bullshit ideas that still persist to this day about whites being superior and yellow skinned folk being fundamentally untrustworthy. The key here is an idea of the japanese not being just different but inferior to whites based on their skin color and ethnic background. This was a blatant hate crime motivated by ethnonationalist and racial supremacy.
This is a fundamentally different justification to the one you claim the USSR has. Being “different” is not the same as being “racially inferior”, and fears about them being loyal to their homeland were more understandable because their supposed ethnic homeland just launched a war of genocide against eastern European slavs, like the Russians in the USSR on the basis that ethnically german people are racially superior to slavs and thus are entitled to kill them and steal their land. It wasn’t “oh they are german so they are fundamentally untrustworhy because they are racially inferior subhumans”, it was “they are german so they are untrustworthy because germany just launched a genocidal war against us based on ethnic german supremacy”. A completely different situation to an inter-imperialist conflict between japan and america.
There is no such thing as “anti white/german racism” while white supremacist racism against nonwhite people is still being used as an excuse for genocide to this very second.
The most enlightening thing would be to get historical documents showing the USSRs actual motivations on paper.
not everyone got resettled, either. anecdotally i know of a family where the dad said that if hitler’s german, then he isnt, and so the entire family marked themselves as ethnically hungarian on a pre-war census. said census was used to deport germans after the war, so his family got to stay.
his eager nazi collaborator neighbor was shipped off to germany and came back years later, rich, in a mercedes.
also, 1.9% of hungary still self-describes as some kind of german.
Yeah that’s one of the issues with determining ethnicity, it’s often more about self-identification than pure genetic or cultural markers. A group or family can move into an area and retain their prior cultural identity, or they can just subsume themselves into the local culture, identify as such, and within a few generations are indistinguishable from the “native” population. Which makes me think that this 12 million number is coming from an extremely broad definition of “Germanic” that’s throwing in a lot of displaced persons that probably didn’t identify as German.
Never claimed they were, was referring more to the german settler colonists who invaded eastern europe
Okay but you don’t get anywhere near that number including just those. You have to include the Sudeten Germany, and the Germans in Western Poland both of which include the vast, vast majority of Germans expelled.
Well I never insisted that these groups should be excluded because my comment was a question about whether the slop history youtuber and the xitter nazis were referring to the german settlers or whether something else happened. *Still don’t give a shit about xitter nazi crocodile tears.
It can’t, or the math doesn’t add up. They have to be counting “Sudeten Germans.”“Sudeten Germans” had lived in the area for centuries, although only under that name after the dissolution of Austria-Hungary (As prior to that they would have been Austrians, or German Austrians). But these people were not “German settlers”, that is frankly inaccurate
Now, Sudeten Germans are noteworthy for a lot of things, joining the nazi party at a higher rate than the rest of Germany, eagerly participating in the administration of the nazi puppet state that suppressed their former countrymen, and for initially including most of the Jewish population of the area (The Jewish population were swiftly excised from the definition of a “German” even though they were part of the culture and had identified under that term).
What happened to the Germans there was fully ethnic cleansing, albeit a nicer one than half of them were going to expose their Slavic countrymen to.
I’m Czech and had Sudeten relatives that weren’t removed, the ones that voted for the Nazis had their whole family removed (my relatives voted for the “communists” as they didn’t approve of the escalation against their Czech relatives, a couple experienced racist violence due to marrying non Germans as well). Iirc only the household head could vote and they didn’t want to split families, so thats why so few were left.
I’m of partial Sudeten German heritage, and the events in the area were unfortunate and more nuanced than the different settler analogies that people on here like to present. Since most don’t really have a connection to that topic, its easy to be flippant.
Like my grandparent really only thought of Czechia as their home ever, even claiming that our family wasnt “truly german”. However by that point in time the “ethnic relations” between Germans & Czechs were so polarized, that it kinda was domed. And you dont really come back from trying to genocide your neighbours.
a lot more than just the sudeten germans. there was a german diaspora all over eastern europe, going back centuries. old german villages in hungary, romania, russia. poland of course, though there the germans were more of a colonizing force even in the past.
a lot of these german communities supported the nazis during the war (IIRC there were old german mennonite villages in the east who were supposed to be religiously pacifist but somehow found it OK to do a bit of holocaust.
some fled west during the closing months of the war. after the war, the warsaw pact countries shipped a lot of the remainder to germany (dont know the proportions of those that stayed vs those that got shipped off). the rest are still here, but a lot more assimilated.
Yes, but the Sudeten Germans are a group that were vociferously pro nazi, need to be included to get the numbers, and were absolutely ethnically cleansed.
I think you’re mixing two things together. You might be thinking of the Russian civil war were these groups would engage in violence against Slavs in Ukraine despite their supposed religious objection to violence. This was part of the reason for Makhno’s black forces engaging in ethnic violence against these people. However German Mennonites were not ethnically cleansed from the Soviet union. Germans were internally deported in the soviet union during the war itself (Which wasn’t great for much the same reason that the Japanese internment camps were bad), and those who moved west did so at the behest of the nazis, and Germans essentially self deported from areas that would be occupied by the Soviet union itself in actions like Operation Hannibal. German Mennonites as far as I’m aware did not constitute a significant nazi population, but Sudeten Germans did to a grotesque degree. German Mennonites in the former soviet union (RIP
are also usually seen as a subgroup of Baltic Germans, a group that have their own weird relationship with population transfers, seeing as they were exposed to forced population transfers/ethnic cleansing by Nazi Germany.
Yes that’s why I said you need to include groups like the Sudeten Germans to make the math work. roughly 8 million Germans were expelled from Poland and the rest, apart from the Sudeten Germans, are a rounding errors in comparison. Like adding up all the population transfers, prison sentences in the soviet union and all the rest you might get to 200000 Germans in Hungary who were expelled, the most anti soviet sources give estimates around 200000-300000 for Romania from what I can tell, and in Yugoslavia those who didn’t flee with the nazi army were subject to reprisals from locals (Duh) and chose to leave when they were offered German citizenship in like 1950 but even if we count every single German as having been ethnically cleansed from Yugoslavia we just don’t get the numbers.
The Japanese internment camps were bad because the USA is a white supremacist settler-colonial shithole and interned the ethnic Japanese because they viewed them as racially inferior nonwhite collaborators of a racially inferior nonwhite enemy who are racially predisposed to betrayal based on their yellow skin color and the latest phrenological breakthroughs in skull shape of the time.
Whatever the USSR did to their germans can’t be compared to that racist white supremacist nonsense.
you don’t have to be hopped up on american race science to do a genocide or ethnic cleansing
Indeed, zionism is not strictly american race science and yet they are committing genocide and ethnic cleansing. However I doubt the USSR internally deported the germans because they were racist Russian supremacists. It’s a fundamentally incorrect comparison to make to a white supremacist ethnonationalist atrocity.
They don’t need to be doing it for “Russian supremacy” for it to still “not be good” like you go off on american caliper based race science when the motivation for shuffling Germans around the USSR internally was the same as the motivation for japanese internment, that being that they “couldn’t be trusted” to not support their “homeland” against the USSR. It’s literally the same fucking thing.
Just to be clear, it “not being good” is an entirely different conversation to it “being the same as the japanese internment camps”.
On the point of these two events being “literally the same fucking thing”.
The amerisharts basically put all of their ethnically Japanese citizens in fucking concentration camps where they faced grave mistreatment, based on racist, bullshit ideas that still persist to this day about whites being superior and yellow skinned folk being fundamentally untrustworthy. The key here is an idea of the japanese not being just different but inferior to whites based on their skin color and ethnic background. This was a blatant hate crime motivated by ethnonationalist and racial supremacy.
This is a fundamentally different justification to the one you claim the USSR has. Being “different” is not the same as being “racially inferior”, and fears about them being loyal to their homeland were more understandable because their supposed ethnic homeland just launched a war of genocide against eastern European slavs, like the Russians in the USSR on the basis that ethnically german people are racially superior to slavs and thus are entitled to kill them and steal their land. It wasn’t “oh they are german so they are fundamentally untrustworhy because they are racially inferior subhumans”, it was “they are german so they are untrustworthy because germany just launched a genocidal war against us based on ethnic german supremacy”. A completely different situation to an inter-imperialist conflict between japan and america.
There is no such thing as “anti white/german racism” while white supremacist racism against nonwhite people is still being used as an excuse for genocide to this very second.
The most enlightening thing would be to get historical documents showing the USSRs actual motivations on paper.
Never claimed they were, was referring more to the german settler colonists who invaded eastern europe and not the “sudeten germans”.
That is an interesting bit of history. Still don’t give a shit about what xitter nazis have to say about the topic of ethnic cleansing.
not everyone got resettled, either. anecdotally i know of a family where the dad said that if hitler’s german, then he isnt, and so the entire family marked themselves as ethnically hungarian on a pre-war census. said census was used to deport germans after the war, so his family got to stay.
his eager nazi collaborator neighbor was shipped off to germany and came back years later, rich, in a mercedes.
also, 1.9% of hungary still self-describes as some kind of german.
Highly effective ethnic cleansing campaign I see. What a tragedy for ethnic germans in hungary.
Same in Poland, after 1989, reprivatisation got mentioned and suddenly a fuckton of “ethnic Germans” appeared.
Yeah that’s one of the issues with determining ethnicity, it’s often more about self-identification than pure genetic or cultural markers. A group or family can move into an area and retain their prior cultural identity, or they can just subsume themselves into the local culture, identify as such, and within a few generations are indistinguishable from the “native” population. Which makes me think that this 12 million number is coming from an extremely broad definition of “Germanic” that’s throwing in a lot of displaced persons that probably didn’t identify as German.
Okay but you don’t get anywhere near that number including just those. You have to include the Sudeten Germany, and the Germans in Western Poland both of which include the vast, vast majority of Germans expelled.
Well I never insisted that these groups should be excluded because my comment was a question about whether the slop history youtuber and the xitter nazis were referring to the german settlers or whether something else happened. *Still don’t give a shit about xitter nazi crocodile tears.