a lot more than just the sudeten germans. there was a german diaspora all over eastern europe, going back centuries. old german villages in hungary, romania, russia. poland of course, though there the germans were more of a colonizing force even in the past.
a lot of these german communities supported the nazis during the war (IIRC there were old german mennonite villages in the east who were supposed to be religiously pacifist but somehow found it OK to do a bit of holocaust.
some fled west during the closing months of the war. after the war, the warsaw pact countries shipped a lot of the remainder to germany (dont know the proportions of those that stayed vs those that got shipped off). the rest are still here, but a lot more assimilated.
Yes, but the Sudeten Germans are a group that were vociferously pro nazi, need to be included to get the numbers, and were absolutely ethnically cleansed.
a lot of these german communities supported the nazis during the war (IIRC there were old german mennonite villages in the east who were supposed to be religiously pacifist but somehow found it OK to do a bit of holocaust.
I think you’re mixing two things together.
You might be thinking of the Russian civil war were these groups would engage in violence against Slavs in Ukraine despite their supposed religious objection to violence. This was part of the reason for Makhno’s black forces engaging in ethnic violence against these people. However German Mennonites were not ethnically cleansed from the Soviet union. Germans were internally deported in the soviet union during the war itself (Which wasn’t great for much the same reason that the Japanese internment camps were bad), and those who moved west did so at the behest of the nazis, and Germans essentially self deported from areas that would be occupied by the Soviet union itself in actions like Operation Hannibal.
German Mennonites as far as I’m aware did not constitute a significant nazi population, but Sudeten Germans did to a grotesque degree.
German Mennonites in the former soviet union (RIP are also usually seen as a subgroup of Baltic Germans, a group that have their own weird relationship with population transfers, seeing as they were exposed to forced population transfers/ethnic cleansing by Nazi Germany.
the warsaw pact countries shipped a lot of the remainder to germany
Yes that’s why I said you need to include groups like the Sudeten Germans to make the math work. roughly 8 million Germans were expelled from Poland and the rest, apart from the Sudeten Germans, are a rounding errors in comparison. Like adding up all the population transfers, prison sentences in the soviet union and all the rest you might get to 200000 Germans in Hungary who were expelled, the most anti soviet sources give estimates around 200000-300000 for Romania from what I can tell, and in Yugoslavia those who didn’t flee with the nazi army were subject to reprisals from locals (Duh) and chose to leave when they were offered German citizenship in like 1950 but even if we count every single German as having been ethnically cleansed from Yugoslavia we just don’t get the numbers.
Germans were internally deported in the soviet union during the war itself (Which wasn’t great for much the same reason that the Japanese internment camps were bad)
The Japanese internment camps were bad because the USA is a white supremacist settler-colonial shithole and interned the ethnic Japanese because they viewed them as racially inferior nonwhite collaborators of a racially inferior nonwhite enemy who are racially predisposed to betrayal based on their yellow skin color and the latest phrenological breakthroughs in skull shape of the time.
Whatever the USSR did to their germans can’t be compared to that racist white supremacist nonsense.
Indeed, zionism is not strictly american race science and yet they are committing genocide and ethnic cleansing. However I doubt the USSR internally deported the germans because they were racist Russian supremacists. It’s a fundamentally incorrect comparison to make to a white supremacist ethnonationalist atrocity.
However I doubt the USSR internally deported the germans because they were racist Russian supremacists
They don’t need to be doing it for “Russian supremacy” for it to still “not be good” like you go off on american caliper based race science when the motivation for shuffling Germans around the USSR internally was the same as the motivation for japanese internment, that being that they “couldn’t be trusted” to not support their “homeland” against the USSR. It’s literally the same fucking thing.
They don’t need to be doing it for “Russian supremacy” for it to still “not be good”
Just to be clear, it “not being good” is an entirely different conversation to it “being the same as the japanese internment camps”.
On the point of these two events being “literally the same fucking thing”.
The amerisharts basically put all of their ethnically Japanese citizens in fucking concentration camps where they faced grave mistreatment, based on racist, bullshit ideas that still persist to this day about whites being superior and yellow skinned folk being fundamentally untrustworthy. The key here is an idea of the japanese not being just different but inferior to whites based on their skin color and ethnic background. This was a blatant hate crime motivated by ethnonationalist and racial supremacy.
This is a fundamentally different justification to the one you claim the USSR has. Being “different” is not the same as being “racially inferior”, and fears about them being loyal to their homeland were more understandable because their supposed ethnic homeland just launched a war of genocide against eastern European slavs, like the Russians in the USSR on the basis that ethnically german people are racially superior to slavs and thus are entitled to kill them and steal their land. It wasn’t “oh they are german so they are fundamentally untrustworhy because they are racially inferior subhumans”, it was “they are german so they are untrustworthy because germany just launched a genocidal war against us based on ethnic german supremacy”. A completely different situation to an inter-imperialist conflict between japan and america.
There is no such thing as “anti white/german racism” while white supremacist racism against nonwhite people is still being used as an excuse for genocide to this very second.
The most enlightening thing would be to get historical documents showing the USSRs actual motivations on paper.
a lot more than just the sudeten germans. there was a german diaspora all over eastern europe, going back centuries. old german villages in hungary, romania, russia. poland of course, though there the germans were more of a colonizing force even in the past.
a lot of these german communities supported the nazis during the war (IIRC there were old german mennonite villages in the east who were supposed to be religiously pacifist but somehow found it OK to do a bit of holocaust.
some fled west during the closing months of the war. after the war, the warsaw pact countries shipped a lot of the remainder to germany (dont know the proportions of those that stayed vs those that got shipped off). the rest are still here, but a lot more assimilated.
Yes, but the Sudeten Germans are a group that were vociferously pro nazi, need to be included to get the numbers, and were absolutely ethnically cleansed.
I think you’re mixing two things together. You might be thinking of the Russian civil war were these groups would engage in violence against Slavs in Ukraine despite their supposed religious objection to violence. This was part of the reason for Makhno’s black forces engaging in ethnic violence against these people. However German Mennonites were not ethnically cleansed from the Soviet union. Germans were internally deported in the soviet union during the war itself (Which wasn’t great for much the same reason that the Japanese internment camps were bad), and those who moved west did so at the behest of the nazis, and Germans essentially self deported from areas that would be occupied by the Soviet union itself in actions like Operation Hannibal. German Mennonites as far as I’m aware did not constitute a significant nazi population, but Sudeten Germans did to a grotesque degree. German Mennonites in the former soviet union (RIP
are also usually seen as a subgroup of Baltic Germans, a group that have their own weird relationship with population transfers, seeing as they were exposed to forced population transfers/ethnic cleansing by Nazi Germany.
Yes that’s why I said you need to include groups like the Sudeten Germans to make the math work. roughly 8 million Germans were expelled from Poland and the rest, apart from the Sudeten Germans, are a rounding errors in comparison. Like adding up all the population transfers, prison sentences in the soviet union and all the rest you might get to 200000 Germans in Hungary who were expelled, the most anti soviet sources give estimates around 200000-300000 for Romania from what I can tell, and in Yugoslavia those who didn’t flee with the nazi army were subject to reprisals from locals (Duh) and chose to leave when they were offered German citizenship in like 1950 but even if we count every single German as having been ethnically cleansed from Yugoslavia we just don’t get the numbers.
The Japanese internment camps were bad because the USA is a white supremacist settler-colonial shithole and interned the ethnic Japanese because they viewed them as racially inferior nonwhite collaborators of a racially inferior nonwhite enemy who are racially predisposed to betrayal based on their yellow skin color and the latest phrenological breakthroughs in skull shape of the time.
Whatever the USSR did to their germans can’t be compared to that racist white supremacist nonsense.
you don’t have to be hopped up on american race science to do a genocide or ethnic cleansing
Indeed, zionism is not strictly american race science and yet they are committing genocide and ethnic cleansing. However I doubt the USSR internally deported the germans because they were racist Russian supremacists. It’s a fundamentally incorrect comparison to make to a white supremacist ethnonationalist atrocity.
They don’t need to be doing it for “Russian supremacy” for it to still “not be good” like you go off on american caliper based race science when the motivation for shuffling Germans around the USSR internally was the same as the motivation for japanese internment, that being that they “couldn’t be trusted” to not support their “homeland” against the USSR. It’s literally the same fucking thing.
Just to be clear, it “not being good” is an entirely different conversation to it “being the same as the japanese internment camps”.
On the point of these two events being “literally the same fucking thing”.
The amerisharts basically put all of their ethnically Japanese citizens in fucking concentration camps where they faced grave mistreatment, based on racist, bullshit ideas that still persist to this day about whites being superior and yellow skinned folk being fundamentally untrustworthy. The key here is an idea of the japanese not being just different but inferior to whites based on their skin color and ethnic background. This was a blatant hate crime motivated by ethnonationalist and racial supremacy.
This is a fundamentally different justification to the one you claim the USSR has. Being “different” is not the same as being “racially inferior”, and fears about them being loyal to their homeland were more understandable because their supposed ethnic homeland just launched a war of genocide against eastern European slavs, like the Russians in the USSR on the basis that ethnically german people are racially superior to slavs and thus are entitled to kill them and steal their land. It wasn’t “oh they are german so they are fundamentally untrustworhy because they are racially inferior subhumans”, it was “they are german so they are untrustworthy because germany just launched a genocidal war against us based on ethnic german supremacy”. A completely different situation to an inter-imperialist conflict between japan and america.
There is no such thing as “anti white/german racism” while white supremacist racism against nonwhite people is still being used as an excuse for genocide to this very second.
The most enlightening thing would be to get historical documents showing the USSRs actual motivations on paper.