• This persons defense of their take is wild. “I believe in due process and right to a fair trial, but I also think the people who ensure that right are pieces of shit.”

    It really reminds me of that meme I can’t find where someone is like “I believe in rehabilitative justice.”

    “This person did a bad thing.”

    “IMMEDIATE DEATH!”

    • revolut1917 [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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      anarchists get such a shit name from these useless idiot liberals who like to put a black flag in their username and think that anarchism is just a vibes-based thing with no consistent theory or practice. I mean, communists have that issue too, but it seems notably worse for the anarchists.

      • purpleworm [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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        Depending on how you’re defining communists, the communists are much more frequently compromised, they are just better at not sounding like teenagers or radlibs.

        • ufcwthrowaway [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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          Righ, vigilanteeism * seems like* a logical extension of the direct action framework. You’re cutting out the middle man, solving a problem yourself!

          But the most important part of anarchism is alignment of ends and means; making revolution using organizations that are non-heirarchal, directly democratic, de-commodify things, etc. The vigilante mob is not an anarchist governing form.

          That’s not to say it’s never useful. The FAU held bosses’ children hostage during strikes to increase the bargaining power of the workers. But we should be very careful about when and how we deploy vigilanteeism and who it’s accountable to.

          • As a former anarchist turned ML this was actually what made me begin to question anarchism. There’s a lot of focus on how centralized and organized oppression, but in history there’s plenty of examples of decentralized disorganized oppressive violence, especially when it comes to settler colonialism. Like in the West Bank a lot of these zionist gangs aren’t particularly well organized, they’re just roving bands of teenaged thugs, some so disorganized and violent even the Israeli state (at least up till recently) didn’t want to be seen (directly) supporting them.

            I think we need to recognize that some populations are so reactionary that letting them organize autonomously isn’t going to lead to anything emancipatory. Like if you somehow turned the segregation south into a confederation of anarchist communes I think a lot, if not most, of the majority white ones would be like “okay we still hate black people so we’re gonna directly democraticly vote to enforce segregated locally”. If Washington had been taken over by Bolsheviks and they decided to roll the American Red Army in to force desegregation in the south would that be “authoritarian”?

            • ufcwthrowaway [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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              To answer your hypothetical, I want to break it into two implicit parts. The first is a critique that decentralization doesnt address segregation and the long history of racial oppression. You’re absolutely right! Decentralization of the economy was a demand taken up by people who had been craftsmen and commoners and were watching themselves get pushed into monopolistic economic arrangements like factory production and tenant farming. In this context, decentralization made a lot of sense! In the same regard, the hyper-centralization of the economy proposed by the Soviet Union was designed to, and successfully facilitated, rapid industrialization. We saw similar centralization and intensification of state power happen in capitalist developing countries like Singapore, Taiwan and Occupied Korea. To this day, most housing in Taiwan is state owned and leased by the occupants.

              Segregation and white supremacy are related, intertwined but seperate issues from industrialization and inclosure. They require different responses. You point out that just communizing the south without addressing Segregation would be deeply problematic. I agree! Its trying to solve a problem of the long 20th century with tools of the 17th through 19th centuries!

              But where we possibly disagree and definitely have a difference in emphasis is the best way to solve the problem of Segregation. You ask “is it authoritarian to march on the south?” And I would reply by saying that it depends on how you do it. Is there a way to do it that garners mass participation from the oppressed? I think there is.

              When Lincoln announced that any slave who fought for the union army would be freed, slaves freed themselves en masse, and left the plantations without labor. Imagine how history could have played out if the North had said “all former plantation land is yours, go claim your 40 acres and the government will grant you the deed.” You would have seen land reform in the US from the bottom-up!

              Compare this to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, which was also, clearly just. It was between a socialist party with developmentalist and democratic aspirations in power vs warlords and monarchists. There was a right and a wrong side. But they didn’t have a mass base. There were no peasants ready to seize the farms, no workers ready to seize the factories. That was a just but authoritarian invasion (since we’ve insisted on using an imprecise and emotionally loaded word).

              And once the workers have the factories and the peasants have the land and the baristas have the roastaries the question of administration becomes incredibly important and lines between dictatorship and democracy become more clear cut. Once we invade the south, who controls the land and in what manner? If we have Federated communes, who are their constituencies‐‐are they segregated? Do they include former bosses? Do they include the disabled?

              These questions are where we need anarchism as a guiding moral beacon to say “no, Trotsky should not have ended elections in the Red Army” or “yes, the Bundists should have been given their autonomous zone”

            • ufcwthrowaway [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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              I’m gonna say ahead of time that I’ve written a lot and I want you to read it in a spirit of good faith, I think you have some important points and they’re worth thinking through. I dont want you to become an anarchist again, but I do want you to seriously think through what I’m going to put forward and use the questions it poses to inform your leninism.

              I’ve had this conversation a lot, where marxists (rightly) point out the need for unity in action, discipline to maintain that unity, and some level of centralization. The problem is that a lot of them swing from “no centralization ever” to “lets forget the anarchist critique of centralization and top down politics.” I think you can have both, and, MLs have created some of the best examples.

              Israel has a central, legitimate body which does colonialism the legal way and uses vigilantes to expand its power while maintaining plausible deniability. This is a great framework for revolutionaries! Have a legitimate above ground organization “workers for a democratic economy” and a decentralized underground that can expand its mission without ever tarnishing the reputation of the above ground org. Many groups do this, with the Phillipine communist movement being the one that probably the most USians have organized with directly. Decentralization and centralization are tactics that make sense in different contexts.

              What I’d argue is that how we do centralization is very important and needs to be informed by the anarchist critique. There’s a huge difference between a leadership body of elected, re-callable delegates and a leadership body which selects new members through an internal process. In the labor context, you can think about United Electrical vs UFCW for an example of each, respectively. They’re both centralized orgs that will punish their members for crossing picket lines and try to generate internal unity during the peaks of struggle, but one is deeply democratic and the other is a dictatorship.

              But UE wasn’t founded by anarchists! Its most important early organizers were Communist Party members taking orders from the top down with almost 0 internal democracy! And yet they created the most democratic union in the CIO.

              If the American labor movement had done what the Russian and Spanish labor movements did in the early 20th century and seized the economy, what kind of situation would have been produced by United Electrical seizing the economy vs What kind of situation would have been produced by UFCW or the Steelworkers doing the same?

              If you think that matters, then you agree with the central argument of anarchism, you just have quibbles around implementation. Honestly, as our revolutionary movement matures anarchists will look more like MLs and MLs more like anarchists–the revolutionary movements of the future will not look like the revolutionary movements of the past.

      • barrbaric [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        Imo the reason for this is mostly just that anarchism hasn’t been demonized to the extent that communism has been in the west. More people who are uninformed “baby” leftists with no grounding in theory or experience organizing will therefore identify as anarchists than communists, and so the number of “anarchists” with shit takes is higher than the number of “communists” with shit takes.

    • jack [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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      There’s basically one guaranteed way to have a terrible workload and shit pay and no recognition as a lawyer, so I don’t really give a shit about how ideologically pure any PD is. They are definitionally fighters for the working class.

    • Mardoniush [she/her]@hexbear.net
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      I once had an acquaintance that worked as a public defender in…Texas…Arizona…I dunno some US desert hell state. They said 3/4ths of their job was stopping people of colour with fetal alcohol syndrome from signing a confession because the police said if they signed it they could “go home.”

  • VILenin [he/him]@hexbear.netM
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    “So true! Fuck public defenders, cops and prosecutors should be able to do whatever the fuck they want!” -fedposting

    Twitter “anarchists” doing literal “soft on crime” copaganda. lmao

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      Well the cops arrested them so they must be guilty, lock them up! What do you mean my opinions are completely indistinguishable from your fascist uncle?

    • FYI, intentionally giving someone a bad defense as a lawyer is a disbarable and sueable offense. Even if a PD gets a client who is obviously guilty as sin, if they do a obviously bad job defending them they will lose their license and probably get sued for everything they’re worth.

  • ProfessorOwl_PhD [any]@hexbear.net
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    I’ve known a fair few public defenders and only ever read of ones that did it for non-ideological reasons (Queer Harmer). Like either you absolutely fully believe in the importance of defending both the guilty and innocent from the potential injustices of the legal system or you’re not cut out for it.

  • DragonBallZinn [he/him, they/them]@hexbear.net
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    These are the same people so concerned about men getting falsely accused of sexual assault.

    A defender’s literal job is to defend their client no matter what. And yes, pleading guilty does lead to lighter sentences.

    Plus this is fucking Amerikkka. The mob is always wrong, if we just kept doing lynch mobs then it would be illegal to NOT be a nazi by now.

    • purpleworm [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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      Plus this is fucking Amerikkka. The mob is always wrong,

      I agree that we shouldn’t do lynch mobs, but it’s a lie told by reactionaries that popular sentiment in America is consistently in favor of reactionary attitudes and ideas. On many important issues, popular sentiment is far to the left of anything the political establishment humors.

        • purpleworm [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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          The truth remains the truth, and no amount of misanthropy changes that. Furthermore, pointing to who gets elected in the US as evidence of what is most popular is not a good methodology:

          popular sentiment is far to the left of anything the political establishment humors.

          I am obviously not saying the majority can do no wrong – I think their attitude towards immigrants is pretty reactionary, and that is significant – but it’s just ridiculous to say in America that a Democrat politician represents what the more left popular views are.

    • Keld [he/him, any]@hexbear.net
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      These are the same people so concerned about men getting falsely accused of sexual assault.

      It isn’t. That is the public defender here. Like let’s not conflate things. The guy under criticism for being a public defender’s argument is in part that those accused of domestic violence and abuse are the poor and otherwise disenfranchised (Citing black people getting accused of domestic violence at higher levels amongst other things) and that the capitalist and imperialist state is an illegitimate judge so getting people off in any case is Good.

    • Mardoniush [she/her]@hexbear.net
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      Literally one of the most tailist things I’ve ever read. (Twitter) Anarchists always forget that the state might wither away but it withers away into the administration of things.

  • Vampire [any]@hexbear.net
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    admitted that they’ve defendedremoveds and helped them get lighter sentences

    This person must believe a heavier sentence is always a better sentence.

  • Horse {they/them}@lemmygrad.ml
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    tbh the entire legal system should be ripped out and replaced so that you don’t need someone with an expensive fancy degree to navigate it

    but for now though public defenders are fine
    some are shit and fail to help their clients properly but that’s for many reasons

    • purpleworm [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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      I don’t think it’s avoidable that you need expertise for handling something epistemically rigorous like the legal system should be. Other solutions include making the degree less expensive and cops and the legal system less predatory.

    • MaoTheLawn [any, any]@hexbear.net
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      Overly idealistic, although it is true especially within immigration law that the laws are deliberately difficult to navigate without professional help.