☝️🤓 Um Actual this is technically correct since the concept of Fascism didn’t emerge until much later in world history.
I used to quote A People’s History Of The United States to pro-america libs about the “founding fathers” or the true nature of america / the two party system, and the best I got was one eventually relented and was like “look man I dont actually read or know anything about this stuff”
look man I dont actually read or know anything about this stuff
the self-awareness is refreshing
This is actually correct. They were big standard liberals, not fascists, which is a specific thing. Thing is liberalism isn’t any more incompatible with genocide and slavery than fascism is but a lot of people seem not to realize this.
yeah libs just think fascism is when bad thing, so this sign is coherent to their idoelogy
Yeah that’s exactly right, this poster is completely wrong in the way this person meant it, trying to imply Donald Trump is not sognificantly more progressive than the founders.
The biggest bullshit hurdle the US has to overcome is the idea that their country was ever ethical or something to be proud of
That’ll never happen as long as people are getting their education from Broadway musicals.
maybe controversial opinion but fuck Hamilton. In fact, fuck all American-made media
brave af comrade
probably the coldest take on this website
There’s lots of great American-made media, but Hamilton is good only as a dirge for American liberalism.
I can’t believe I had a so-called progressive recently tell me it was valuable for “representation.” What a sick fucking joke, that a play that has every ability to include a person of color anywhere in its depiction of the dictatorship of slavers that was early anglo-America, but it simply doesn’t. It’s not like they didn’t have occasions to do so, but I guess LMM decided that it would sour the tone of Jefferson returning to America if Sally Hemings was with him! Then, you might actually need to think about something instead of just having the eternal recapitulation of liberalism’s triumph over monarchy. Also let’s just explicitly pretend Hamilton was an abolitionist so people don’t feel bad about the endless mill of human suffering we’re ignoring.
He said in an interview that he had originally intended for there to be at least a minor debate about slavery, but when he tried to write it out it didn’t really go anywhere because, you know, they all supported slavery. I don’t remember exactly how he phrased it, but it was very funny because it seemed like a glimpse of almost getting the horror of this thing he lionizes, explained in terms of being dramatically unsatisfying.
Hamilton is so cringe. Libs have bad taste in musicals.
I was talking about this today with a friend. Our local protest had a few Mexican flags, and I remarked that I wish more Americans knew literally anything about Mexican history.
It’s not a communist paradise or anything, but it has had a much more consistently radical history than the US. And I think that knowledge of their neighbor might disabuse at least some people of their liberal delusions
When I was in Oaxaca, there was an exhibit of women in Mexican history and I was blown away by how many were strapped in their portraits, e.g.,
pic goes hard
I wish more Americans knew literally anything about Mexican history.
Parts of the US were stolen from Mexico. As the saying goes: “Hispanics didn’t move here. The border did.” You have a bunch of mayonnaise-Americans living in cities named shit like “Los Angeles,” “San Antonio,” or “Albuquerque” and they have the gall to want Latine people gone. Or the Native Americans who have lived there for thousands of years.
That too! Tbh, I kinda think the FRSO is cooking (despite their otherwise revisionist stance on the national question), with their line on self-determination for Atzlan. The parts of Mexico we stole as Constituting an internal colony that fits the Marxist definition of a nation, like the Black Belt.
It’s really under theorized in the American left, and I think that’s a big blind spot for the left, given how much of an exploited, peripheral, population that Hispanics are in this country.
Any reading recs for mexican history?
This was a huge one for me personally, and likely a lot of at least white, raised middle class leftists. Took awhile to eschew that there was anything salvagable in the genocide-and-slaves country. Like just seeing the flag about, or on clothes I just assume that person is a fascist lol
Like just seeing the flag about, or on clothes I just assume that person is a fascist lol
it’s no different to a swastika or an “israeli” flag tbh
What opened your eyes? I feel like it should be very simple and straightforward: if you consider all humans’ lives equally valuable, then you hate the USA for murdering millions of people in its wars. This is what “radicalized” me although I think it’s absurd to call my position of knowing that mass murder is wrong “radical” or “extreme”.
And yet, here is how interactions have gone for me:
Me: mass murder bad. Right?
Libs and conservatives: right.
Me: competent actors are responsible for the consequences of their actions. Right?
Libs and conservatives: right.
Me: America has started many wars and as a result many people died, both directly by American weapons and also indirectly by the effects of war. Right?
Libs and conservatives: right.
Me: therefore America is an evil mass murdering entity and the enemy of every decent person in the world. Right?
Libs and conservatives: well HOLD ON NOW (gibberish, bullshit, going quiet and not engaging, anything to avoid pitting reality against their beliefs and seeing which one wins)
I also thought America was good when I was a very young child. Then I saw America murder a bunch of innocent civilians on the news and grew out of such childish unreality. Since it is so obvious I just don’t know what to do when I tell people the truth and they refuse to get the point. It feels like nothing works.
I know for me it was a combination of learning US history, always having leftist tendencies when I was a child, working blue collar jobs, and the final nail in the coffin was Occupy Wallstreet/Obama administration. The consistent thing across these experiences was how so-called liberals were often just as bad, if not worse, than conservatives. I understood, though, that the solution to liberalism isn’t to go right, but to go further left.
The lack of solidarity among Occupy protesters with working class people and the killing of Abdul al-Awlaki really pissed me off. Then I thought to myself “If liberals are like this now, what the fuck were they like in 1962, 1859, and 1775?”
the moment that Amerifash jerk off about about most, D-Day and the US war in western Europe, was motivated more by base anticommunism than any ethical concern
W. E. B. Du Bois was pretty cool but thats about it
chattel slaveowners are one of the few groups where it’s arguable they are worse than fascistsEDIT: I regret even opening up this line of thinking, especially after PolandIsAStateOfMind’s contribution.
the nazis also did genocide and had slave labor, but i suppose it wasn’t chattel slavery with people openly being bought and sold. they were heavily inspired by the americans but thought things like the one-drop rule were going too far.
it wasn’t chattel slavery with people openly being bought and sold
It actually was, NSDAP officials in charge of forced labour took bribes from the capitalists to direct the slaves to their factories. There also were literal open air slave markets in rural areas where forced labourers (and stolen farm animals) from Eastern Europe were divided between German kulaks, where also money and bribery played important roles. My own grandma and grandpa were kidnapped and sold like that.
yeah ultimately I would still put the nazis at the top of most evil for the use of industrial methods of mass extermination, but it’s not an easy call
The industrial method of extermination is arguably more humane than what they did to the indigenous americans.
I can’t believe I’m using the word “humane” here but this comparison of monsters creates difficult considerations.
after I hit reply I started thinking about what Columbus and his men did to the Taíno and… fuck I think I need to go have a margarita
Now now, that’s going far. You can read plenty of testimony about what the Nazis did e.g. in occupied Poland, the extravagant torture, and Mengele also exists. I think it’s extremely difficult to find anything sicker than Mengele or Unit 731, because they more or less did the worst things they could imagine, with lots of medical and industrial equipment to make it possible.
But common colonization practices like distributing blankets contaminated with a deadly disease don’t measure up?
extreme SV
If we’re insisting on making these comparisons, yes. Just to give one of the most direct comparisons, Unit 731 did “experiments” in which they observed the spread of syphilis, injecting it into male captives and then forcing them to transmit it viaremoved. Mengele sewed twins together to make them artificially-conjoined, which resulted in death by gangrene.
They both did a lot of different things that are bafflingly cruel, and so did the rest of the SS, and the respective fascist armies in general (see Nanjing)
I’d also bring up Pinochet, whose government did many different type of tortures as well, the most infamous of which (besides dropping people from helicopters) is training a dog toremoved women.
Yes, American blacksites have also done elaborate and sadistic things to their captives.
Like, don’t get me wrong, the anglo colonizers were dreadful people and it’s deeply wrong what they did, death to America, etc., but the Nazis and Imperial Japan created “playgrounds” of industrialized torture of the sort that is difficult to explain except by saying that some people seemed to do their best to be as sadistic as possible, keeping prisoners alive only to prolong their suffering for very little reason beyond the suffering itself, as the “data” produced by the “research” programs among these was obviously methodologically unsound, and other instances lacked even that pretense.
I’m sorry for bringing this up; As you might guess from a communist who has suffered through endless litigations on Stalin and Mao, I don’t like atrocity contests, it just really rubbed me the wrong way seeing the Nazis characterized the way Awoo did and I think it had a serious lack of perspective. Even on sheer numbers of humans killed, if anyone wanted to bring that up, I think America is probably still behind Nazi Germany, which is behind Britain, which killed over a hundred million people in India alone over its centuries of occupation, mostly through malnutrition (whether resulting in starvation or fatal infection or otherwise), and it did much else besides. Spain is probably third (behind Britain and Nazi Germany), almost entirely from its extensive killing of indigenous populations. These are just among cases I have at least some familiarity with. I will leave it up to someone else to decide how to consider the various pre-RoC forms of China, because I know almost nothing about that and also I’m just really sick of this subject.
Yeah, I don’t think there’s any point in comparing atrocities because there shouldn’t be a “winner” and the outcome is always just reducing the perceived impact of something horrible. I should’ve worded my reply better; I wasn’t trying to imply that plague blankets were worse, just that it seems like the early settlers get somewhat of a pass due to recency bias and the lurid nature of what some Nazis did.
Same order as magnitude definitely
Being awful isn’t a competition lmao
The only reason the Axis Powers didn’t have chattel slavery was because they were defeated in less than a generation (give or take-- Imperial Japan was doing shit to Korea and China for a lot longer than the nazis were in power). The nazis’ overall plan was to exterminate the entire Jewish, Roma, and black populations across the world then enslave all Eastern Europeans who survive in this scenario. Italy and Japan had similar ideas, with Japan being especially notable because of “comfort women.” The term itself is especially disgusting because it was the enslavement of women and girls as young as 9 or 10.
Those slave-owners sure knew a thing or two about liberty.
I mean, they did often talk about their liberty to own slaves.
No joke, in the south liberty was often seen as the opposite of freedom.
Why appeal to the founding fathers?
Besides, if they were to choose a side currently, they’d choose Trump and the GOP.
The founding fathers if they were alive today:
“You did WHAT with our slaves?”
“You let swarthy German barbarians interbreed with ANGLO-SAXONS?”
“Germans can’t breed with Saxons!”
Early race science is extra funny wtf
Fun fact: one of the most important medieval German chroniclers, bishop Thietmar of Merseburg, who was a Saxon aristocrat, abhorred western Germans to the point he called them barbarians and animals.
Europe? More like Euroidiots amirite
Average race “scientist”: “I have the right amount of <X>! More <X> would be barbaric and less <X> would be d*generate!”
“What in God’s name do you MEAN the poors can vote?!? Yes it’s a sham but it’s the principle of it!”
“and women can do what now?!?”
I think the founding fathers would be disgusted at Trump’s disregard for “enlightenment” era philosophy, but then Trump would promise to let them all keep their slaves and they would wholeheartedly throw their support behind Trump anyway.
Only 3/5th Fascist is the lesser evil
Mainstream Amerikkkan politics is just two groups locked in a titanic struggle over who loves the genocidal death machine more
Go to anti literally insert any social phenomena here protest
There are counter protestors
It’s two groups of white people arguing with each other over who loves America more
