It’s a fact Ive learned by talking to vets, seen online content creators and generally by looking at the community as a whole and also the by looking at the recent ADF report in Afghanistan
Oh, you’re talking about Australian veterans? (That’s what I can find that ADF refers to.) I assumed USian based on the subject of the OP.
Edit: Also, “content creators” is very vague and doesn’t tell much. It’s not as if such people are elected representatives of a given classification of people.
The talking to vets part is the most concrete here.
Edit2: Good thing posting history is a thing. Apparently you’re someone who has lots of anger and bitterness at the status quo (which is understandable), but forgets the “caring about other people” part of why we believe in what we do (which could lead you to reactionary behavior). Communism is a lot more than being angry at what colonialism and imperialism have done to the world and you sure as hell aren’t going to build an alternative world through spite alone.
Theres no difference between adf vets and us vets other than their nationality Ive only mentioned the report because the similarity in how the adf and the us operated in Afghanistan is staggering
Content creators im referring to are YouTubers twitch streamers etc
Why are you so keen on trying to recruit veterans? Unless their specialised they have nothing to offer
Similar does not mean identical. Accounting for distinctions is an important part of contending with people, as individuals or as groups.
I more meant vague in the sense that it doesn’t say much about veterans as a whole. These days, if you have a smartphone and an internet connection, you can be a “content creator”. Doesn’t inherently mean you speak for anyone other than yourself. Unless you are talking specifically about people who speak for orgs and are elected by members of those orgs.
This is some “if you’re not with me, you’re against me” shit. My original question was just asking if you had sourcing for your sweeping claim about an entire classification of people. I did not even advocate for trying to recruit veterans. I do, however, take issue with being reductionist in dealing with millions of people. Even if you have -100 desire to ally with veterans, it’s still important to understand the distinctions of where they are actually at, politically. Minority veterans, for example, are probably going to be closer to something politically that could be an ally, or at least not getting in the way. And if it’s all but assured they’re going to end up as opposition and reaction, then you need to contend with in what way that’s going to manifest and how to deal with it; another time when distinctions matter.
They’ve worked together in both Afghanistan and Iraq it’s identical
Doesn’t matter what you mean I was very specifically referring to content creators who were veterans and made content appealing to other veterans the fact that all of these people happen to be douchebags and scum doesn’t bode well to the politics to the veteran community
I am being reductionist in regards to their politics because thats their politics look at their voting habits and look at the shit they’re spewing every time they open their mouth
Also let’s examine your point here
Minority veterans, for example, are probably going to be closer to something politically that could be an ally, or at least not getting in the way
Do you really want to ally with someone who had a very good chance of having committed atrocities during their services regardless of if they felt bad about it?
And even if they committed no war crimes why should we recruit them?
Respectfully, I think you should study past revolutions, material analysis, the distinction between idealism and materialism, and Lenin’s left-communism; an infantile disorder
Im not a leftcom im not even sure why you think im a leftcom
Just explain something to me from your posts you seem to value veterans to an unreasonable degree why is that?
“I believe we need to recognize the material conditions are so deeply against us that in order for a revolution to have any chance of success in this jingoist country we will almost certainly need to make active inroads in splitting the military ideologically and pushing them left utilizing their experience in combat to serve as cadres. I wont disagree that veterans are overwhelmingly reactionary, I’m not even saying I like them, however I cannot think of a single revolution that succeeded without an organized effort deployed to incorporate military experience into the revolution itself. Without that I can’t imagine a revolution progressing further than the Paris Commune.” You aren’t conducting any historical or material analysis, youre basing your entire successful revolution on whether or not your allies pass a vibe check, this dogmatic insistence is why I believe you to be a leftcom.
I would hope one is not basing their organization with others on probabilities of whether someone committed atrocities, rather than concrete information on whether they did and whether they have turned around as a person.
That said, plenty of veterans won’t have been direct combatants but could still have logistical skills or advice, or knowledge from basic training that they can help others get on track with. The bulk of revolutionary efforts are not direct combat. I don’t know that I would personally trust imperial core combat veterans as combatants in a revolutionary context, but it’s possible they could still provide advice and training under the right kind of supervision.
But this feels a bit navel-gazing out of context of an actual revolutionary vanguard party. There does not appear to be that much of a “left” in the US for example and in the current climate, a civil war between constitutional loyalists and Trumpian fascists seems more likely than a “left” revolution.
I would hope one is not basing their organization with others on probabilities of whether someone committed atrocities, rather than concrete information on whether they did and whether they have turned around as a person.
Already talked about this
Do you really want to ally with someone who had a very good chance of having committed atrocities during their services regardless of if they felt bad about it? And even if they committed no war crimes why should we recruit them?
I don’t know that I would personally trust imperial core combat veterans as combatants in a revolutionary context, but it’s possible they could still provide advice and training under the right kind of supervision.
Most of these frontline infantry men have served in Iraq or Afghanistan any advice they give is going to be useless for whatever type of war you think you’ll be fighting 1) tactics and habits learned in counter insurgency doesn’t translate to running and operating an actual insurgency 2) the type of war they’re involved in is outdated 3) literally just train
That said, plenty of veterans won’t have been direct combatants but could still have logistical skills or advice, or knowledge from basic training that they can help others get on track with.
Again
Unless their specialised they have nothing to offer
But this feels a bit navel-gazing out of context of an actual revolutionary vanguard party. There does not appear to be that much of a “left” in the US for example and in the current climate, a civil war between constitutional loyalists and Trumpian fascists seems more likely than a “left” revolution.
I agree which makes me wonder what the point if all this arguing is
tactics and habits learned in counter insurgency doesn’t translate to running and operating an actual insurgency
Is that actually true? The habits aren’t useful, but knowledge of the tactics seems incredibly useful! As an example, there’s plenty of narcotics agents that become highly successful drug dealers because their experience gives them insights. This seems similar.
Simple frontline troops don’t know how to be an insurgent because being an insurgent and a frontline soldier are too different things they can be taught but they don’t know it from the get go
Most of these frontline infantry men have served in Iraq or Afghanistan any advice they give is going to be useless for whatever type of war you think you’ll be fighting 1) tactics and habits learned in counter insurgency doesn’t translate to running and operating an actual insurgency 2) the type of war they’re involved in is outdated 3) literally just train
This makes no sense. First, why would counter insurgency give you no understanding of insurgency. It’s two sides of the same coin. Second, some things about military training are just basic concepts, like how to manage a firearm, and don’t date fast at all. Third, “literally just train” line reminds me more of PvPers in a video game saying “git gud” than an understanding of RL logistics. Like… train in what? Based on whose experience? With what guidance? To what end? The whole point there was that some of them might have solid advice for training. Obviously they’re not the only people in the universe who understand related concepts, but my god, you’re really reaching on this narrative that there’s no circumstances under which they could possibly offer help.
First it was they’re too reactionary, now it’s “even if they aren’t too reactionary, their skills are still useless,” which is obviously nonsense.
Already talked about this
Do you really want to ally with someone who had a very good chance of having committed atrocities during their services regardless of if they felt bad about it? And even if they committed no war crimes why should we recruit them?
No you didn’t? I was responding to that part directly. As I said, “I would hope one is not basing their organization with others on probabilities of whether someone committed atrocities, rather than concrete information on whether they did and whether they have turned around as a person.” You literally said “a very good chance of”, not "people who are known to have done wrong. “A chance of” may be reason to be cautious, it is not investigation in itself. A person who committed war crimes is not the same as a person who committed no war crimes. You are uncritically assessing a situation, moving the goalposts to insist on a set narrative when it’s challenged, and generally misrepresenting logistics.
It’s not a hill worth dying on. I’m not going to insist someone trust imperial core veterans if they don’t want to and it’s up to peoples who have been harmed by them, as a collective, to decide in what capacity they want to be accepting of such veterans in general. You don’t need to trample over other reasonable points in order to have that stance.
Im responding to the points thats why each answer is different you seem like your arguing because you want to argue go outside also fighting against an insurgency doesnt translate to knowing at a deep level how that insurgency functions operates etc they may be two sides of the same coin but they’re not the same both require two different skill sets, you’re better off trying to recruit former insurgents from Afghanistan, Iraq, Northern Ireland and etc rather than recruiting from veterans who’ve served in infantry this convo is starting to piss me off im done engaging
It’s a fact Ive learned by talking to vets, seen online content creators and generally by looking at the community as a whole and also the by looking at the recent ADF report in Afghanistan
Oh, you’re talking about Australian veterans? (That’s what I can find that ADF refers to.) I assumed USian based on the subject of the OP.
Edit: Also, “content creators” is very vague and doesn’t tell much. It’s not as if such people are elected representatives of a given classification of people.
The talking to vets part is the most concrete here.
Edit2: Good thing posting history is a thing. Apparently you’re someone who has lots of anger and bitterness at the status quo (which is understandable), but forgets the “caring about other people” part of why we believe in what we do (which could lead you to reactionary behavior). Communism is a lot more than being angry at what colonialism and imperialism have done to the world and you sure as hell aren’t going to build an alternative world through spite alone.
Theres no difference between adf vets and us vets other than their nationality Ive only mentioned the report because the similarity in how the adf and the us operated in Afghanistan is staggering
Content creators im referring to are YouTubers twitch streamers etc
Why are you so keen on trying to recruit veterans? Unless their specialised they have nothing to offer
Similar does not mean identical. Accounting for distinctions is an important part of contending with people, as individuals or as groups.
I more meant vague in the sense that it doesn’t say much about veterans as a whole. These days, if you have a smartphone and an internet connection, you can be a “content creator”. Doesn’t inherently mean you speak for anyone other than yourself. Unless you are talking specifically about people who speak for orgs and are elected by members of those orgs.
This is some “if you’re not with me, you’re against me” shit. My original question was just asking if you had sourcing for your sweeping claim about an entire classification of people. I did not even advocate for trying to recruit veterans. I do, however, take issue with being reductionist in dealing with millions of people. Even if you have -100 desire to ally with veterans, it’s still important to understand the distinctions of where they are actually at, politically. Minority veterans, for example, are probably going to be closer to something politically that could be an ally, or at least not getting in the way. And if it’s all but assured they’re going to end up as opposition and reaction, then you need to contend with in what way that’s going to manifest and how to deal with it; another time when distinctions matter.
They’ve worked together in both Afghanistan and Iraq it’s identical
Doesn’t matter what you mean I was very specifically referring to content creators who were veterans and made content appealing to other veterans the fact that all of these people happen to be douchebags and scum doesn’t bode well to the politics to the veteran community
I am being reductionist in regards to their politics because thats their politics look at their voting habits and look at the shit they’re spewing every time they open their mouth
Also let’s examine your point here
Do you really want to ally with someone who had a very good chance of having committed atrocities during their services regardless of if they felt bad about it? And even if they committed no war crimes why should we recruit them?
Respectfully, I think you should study past revolutions, material analysis, the distinction between idealism and materialism, and Lenin’s left-communism; an infantile disorder
Im not a leftcom im not even sure why you think im a leftcom Just explain something to me from your posts you seem to value veterans to an unreasonable degree why is that?
“I believe we need to recognize the material conditions are so deeply against us that in order for a revolution to have any chance of success in this jingoist country we will almost certainly need to make active inroads in splitting the military ideologically and pushing them left utilizing their experience in combat to serve as cadres. I wont disagree that veterans are overwhelmingly reactionary, I’m not even saying I like them, however I cannot think of a single revolution that succeeded without an organized effort deployed to incorporate military experience into the revolution itself. Without that I can’t imagine a revolution progressing further than the Paris Commune.” You aren’t conducting any historical or material analysis, youre basing your entire successful revolution on whether or not your allies pass a vibe check, this dogmatic insistence is why I believe you to be a leftcom.
deleted by creator
I would hope one is not basing their organization with others on probabilities of whether someone committed atrocities, rather than concrete information on whether they did and whether they have turned around as a person.
That said, plenty of veterans won’t have been direct combatants but could still have logistical skills or advice, or knowledge from basic training that they can help others get on track with. The bulk of revolutionary efforts are not direct combat. I don’t know that I would personally trust imperial core combat veterans as combatants in a revolutionary context, but it’s possible they could still provide advice and training under the right kind of supervision.
But this feels a bit navel-gazing out of context of an actual revolutionary vanguard party. There does not appear to be that much of a “left” in the US for example and in the current climate, a civil war between constitutional loyalists and Trumpian fascists seems more likely than a “left” revolution.
Already talked about this
Most of these frontline infantry men have served in Iraq or Afghanistan any advice they give is going to be useless for whatever type of war you think you’ll be fighting 1) tactics and habits learned in counter insurgency doesn’t translate to running and operating an actual insurgency 2) the type of war they’re involved in is outdated 3) literally just train
Again
I agree which makes me wonder what the point if all this arguing is
Is that actually true? The habits aren’t useful, but knowledge of the tactics seems incredibly useful! As an example, there’s plenty of narcotics agents that become highly successful drug dealers because their experience gives them insights. This seems similar.
Simple frontline troops don’t know how to be an insurgent because being an insurgent and a frontline soldier are too different things they can be taught but they don’t know it from the get go
This makes no sense. First, why would counter insurgency give you no understanding of insurgency. It’s two sides of the same coin. Second, some things about military training are just basic concepts, like how to manage a firearm, and don’t date fast at all. Third, “literally just train” line reminds me more of PvPers in a video game saying “git gud” than an understanding of RL logistics. Like… train in what? Based on whose experience? With what guidance? To what end? The whole point there was that some of them might have solid advice for training. Obviously they’re not the only people in the universe who understand related concepts, but my god, you’re really reaching on this narrative that there’s no circumstances under which they could possibly offer help.
First it was they’re too reactionary, now it’s “even if they aren’t too reactionary, their skills are still useless,” which is obviously nonsense.
No you didn’t? I was responding to that part directly. As I said, “I would hope one is not basing their organization with others on probabilities of whether someone committed atrocities, rather than concrete information on whether they did and whether they have turned around as a person.” You literally said “a very good chance of”, not "people who are known to have done wrong. “A chance of” may be reason to be cautious, it is not investigation in itself. A person who committed war crimes is not the same as a person who committed no war crimes. You are uncritically assessing a situation, moving the goalposts to insist on a set narrative when it’s challenged, and generally misrepresenting logistics.
It’s not a hill worth dying on. I’m not going to insist someone trust imperial core veterans if they don’t want to and it’s up to peoples who have been harmed by them, as a collective, to decide in what capacity they want to be accepting of such veterans in general. You don’t need to trample over other reasonable points in order to have that stance.
Im responding to the points thats why each answer is different you seem like your arguing because you want to argue go outside also fighting against an insurgency doesnt translate to knowing at a deep level how that insurgency functions operates etc they may be two sides of the same coin but they’re not the same both require two different skill sets, you’re better off trying to recruit former insurgents from Afghanistan, Iraq, Northern Ireland and etc rather than recruiting from veterans who’ve served in infantry this convo is starting to piss me off im done engaging