I don’t know where to land on the question, their consistency of shitting on “tankies” is truly something to behold.
who
Correct response tbh
Some lemmittor powermod/admin/douchebag
I think they are just a normal Bluemaga liberal
Gotta agree, he’s just really invested in being ‘right’, hence the constant bad faith interactions.
I will always admit when I’m wrong, that’s why I am a leftist, I picked up the communist manifesto as a libertarian to debunk it with logic, and by the time I finished reading it my world view shifted approximately 180 degrees because I found no logical fallacies with any of its contents. I don’t understand how people are so staunchly dedicated to remaining a ‘liberal.’
I know it seems really embarrassing to still be that hung up on the betrayal of the anarchists in the Spanish civil war in 2025
It’s much more embarrassing when you keep in mind that it’s complete revisionist history, before even getting to it being an excuse to be aggrieved that the speaker doesn’t have any real connection to.
It’s much more embarrassing when you keep in mind that it’s complete revisionist history,
redpill me more on this? Cuz I keep on seeing this rhetoric
Short version from what I remember was that it was less a betrayal and more of the USSR seeing the way the wind was blowing. The Spanish Republicans weren’t doing so hot and had also depleted their gold reserves to continue paying for rifles and artillery. The Soviets pulled out of Spain fully in I think 1938, by which point the war was a bit of a lost cause. The USSR then tried focusing on non-intervention pacts for a while to delay a war over the entirety of Europe.
I for one don’t think the Spanish civil war would have been won for the Republican side unless they had over 10x the aid, support from multiple countries, and a more structured military. But that’s neither here nor there. it was 100 years ago and the events are done and gone
USSR kept supplying the Republicans to the end, but the number of military specialists was reduced drastically after the battle of Ebro.
Is there a good source to read up on this?
Matt Christman wrote a book
A pretty decent, if sad, book.
In addition to what @axont@hexbear.net said (which I believe is accurate), what I was referring to specifically wasn’t the “Stalin didn’t send us enough tanks, which means he murdered us” line but the “Spanish Communists worked with the capitalists to suppress the anarchists” line. The way that I’ve heard it told many times is that the whole anarchist (etc.) side had control of a telecommunications building and for some reason, probably their traitorous tankie hearts, the Stalinists and Republicans besieged this building and tossed the anarchist side out, which precipitated the “infighting” where it was the anarchist (etc.) camp vs the Stalinist and Republican camp vs the fascist camp.
I spent a fair bit of time trying to figure out what actually happened and why it all centered on that building until I discovered – from an anarchist archive that was nonetheless very hostile to the Stalin camp – that there was a series of incidents beforehand where the anarchists in charge were sabotaging communications between the Republicans, which is why they and the communists decided that the anarchists weren’t to be trusted with that privilege anymore and must be removed by force. Then, so the story goes, the anarchists had set up barricades across the city by the end of the day and the ~three front conflict began.
There’s this interesting thing that you see with denialist lines where there are people who pretend it didn’t happen and those who admit that it did but say it was a good thing to do. You can find plenty of writing attacking the communists for working the the Republicans, hilariously including Trotsky, whose broad position is obvious because Stalin Bad, but he specifically makes these extremely Ultra arguments about how working with the Republicans meant the communists were not fighting an ideological war, but merely a military one, and thereby made victory impossible because they had no way of properly rallying the masses (by which I think he was including a large amount of the popular base of the Francoists). It’s among the most ridiculous things that I’ve ever read from a “serious intellectual” because Trotsky is not simply being a fool here but, to the best of my understanding, also going entirely against his experiences in the Russian Revolutions for the sake of saying Stalin Bad as emphatically as possible. It’s so fitting that Orwell was part of the anarchist/non-Bolshevik-aligned-communist camp when he was doing his war tourism.
I have no interest in defending the “Stalinist” side in the civil war more broadly, because I think this sort of litigation isn’t useful or relevant or even that interesting, but these specific lines of attack are unforgivably foolish. If you want something better, I think it would be fair to say that communist agitators did engage in slander against the POUM, etc., though the degree to which this was intentional I think also gets misrepresented.
The archive I alluded to is here: https://warwick.ac.uk/services/library/mrc/collections/digital/scw/may
It is of course extremely hostile, which is their prerogative I guess, but still makes it very clear that as concerns the telecom building specifically, the communist/Republican camp was unquestionably in the right because the anarchists were sabotaging the war effort against the fascists for the sake of sticking it to the libs! I haven’t read through everything they link, but it’s worth noting of course that at least two of the three sources in the “communist or pro-communist sources” section are there just to say “look at how crazy and evil the Stalinists were.” Granted, they are valid evidence that there were other problems with how the communists were approaching the situation, but what appears to be well-rounded sourcing ends up having a bent more toward “Here’s the people who hate the communists and here’s the worst prominently-published material from communists we can find to validate that”. I think the only real counterargument is in the Comorera pamphlet and I must admit that I haven’t looked at it very closely.
While it might not be the exact text I had in my head, here’s an example of Trotsky saying what I mentioned: https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1937/xx/spain01.htm
And here’s another text that I found that doesn’t cover that material but I just sort of found it amusing: https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1937/11/hightime.htm He calls Stalin “the Kremlin Cain” twice in just a few pages, which compliments him saying “oppressors and tyrants from the Biblical kings down to Stalin” in the previous text, seemingly mainly over him ordering the assassination of a defecting spy.
@vladimirpoopin@hexbear.net Since I included a couple of links and you asked for sources, hopefully this is something.
Thank you for this effort-post, since I often hear more from anarchists on the MLs cracking down on them in the Spanish Civil War, so it’s good for me to at least have this ML perspective, just in case.
I shouldn’t be taken as an authority on anything, much less an adequate representative of the ML side, but at least the sources are there and you can see an anarchist openly acknowledge the sabotage and see what silly things Trotsky had to say, as though 1944 would be the best time to do a communist revolution in London.
Super helpful, thank you. I’ve only read George Orwell’s own experiences on this which while more than valid reasons to be upset at the USSR, felt incomplete and didn’t really explain motivation for the USSR. Going to dig into those sources but appreciate you sharing them
Any good sources you recommend for this? Been trying to learn more about this topic specifically but haven’t had much luck
yeah, I’m a leftist (i relitigate interwar conflicts from a century ago)
Just one of the .world
doing the
act. There’s a lot of them if you interact with those instances/comms, but PJ is very dedicated to it. There’s some real chauvinist cesspools out there.
A lot of these folks have moved over to piefed, I guess because “tankie lemmy devs” or something.
I remember when HB federated I would click over to the all tab occasionally, it was largely image generated slop or Redditor tier posts that I hadn’t had to interact with for years at that point that made me realize what an oasis it is here.
No idea why they decided to leave reddit only to make it into another reddit. I was reading some reddit stuff the other day, and my god, just so much casual hostility towards each other there, no compliments sounded genuine, people seemed afraid to actually be sincere or commit to an opinion for fear of being “wrong” and just so many posts being creative writing exercises with no attempt to even make them sound realistic.
It was some protest about the API and losing their 3rd party apps.
From the tankiejerk comm they manage. I’m still not sure what I should gather from it.
Think social democracy is the best we can do for now
Patriotic
“we can’t just ABOLISH the police”
Think communism is unrealistic
Yes those are definitely things that “tankies” believe.
Completely incoherent and deeply unserious. I think they were trying to do one of these but failed miserably because that’s all anti-communists are good at
Well, they certainly mastered leftist-wall-of-text memes.
“Thinks communism is unrealistic”
That’s like, the one thing tankies have, is being pro communism, even pro communists that the ruling class in the west tells us to hate.
Is that one of the people who runs one of those anti tankie subreddits?
If so - I’d assume they just picked an anti-tankie position at some point in the incoherent walk through political stances that most people go through, then had a moderately successful subreddit dedicated to it, and “lets me be the head of a moderately successful subreddit” is more than any other political ideology offers, so they stuck with it.
I had the misfortune of learning who PugJesus was yesterday and I think the latter is more likely than the former. What fed would be so diligent? They just seem to do it for the love of the game.
Once went on a date with an anarchist who hated tankies, back before I understood what people meant when they said the word “tankie”. It was weird. Would not recommend.
Always suspicious when someone claims to be “left” but spends more time blindly hating other leftist tendencies than they do capitalism. I can disagree with anarchists while recognising they still want to help people and make the world a better place. Sectarianism only helps the rich.
Right, my stance is that leftist infighting is bad. We can work together or do our own things and form a united front when needed, but there’s no point fighting each other, so it’s weird when someone wants to have a fight with me that I don’t want to have with them.
I’ve always had it that the baseline is understanding dialectical materialism. If both parties are truly materialist, then the disagreements are discussion rather than fundamentals.
The “anarchists” who are also not materialist easily show their whole ass when being asked about what the next steps for a new revolutionary government would be and how that government would defend itself against imperialists as well as how the government would implement their bureaucracy.
There isn’t a fed alive who’d do this much work.
This definitely answers my question.
Honestly, some people who shit on “tankies” sound like three year olds. Completely incoherent.
I’m sure this thread will puff up their ego lol. Include me in the screenshots you dorks.