And israelis will say the same thing towards the palestinians.
Anyway, thanks for having supported me that long, and for your interesting informations, bye :)

the physical evidence we do have points only at the idf

Not that i like to do this, but i’m pro-Hamas(, since they have no other choices left than violence in the face of colonization), and recognize that ‘their bodycam’/‘the dashcam/c.c.t.v.’/… footages are authentic : https://archive.ph/Ux0yY
It’s important to note that, yes, they didn’t want to kill as many civilians as possible, that wasn’t the aim of their operation, and the propaganda against them is, predictably, awfully biased. However even if Israel never released the full unedited footages, we have evidences : https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/18/israel/palestine-videos-hamas-led-attacks-verified
If you just say that they planned to take hostages(, and not simply “kill as many jews as they can”,) then yes, we agree, but we have evidence of them killing some civilians, you can’t just say “zero”.
And, honestly, compared to what Israel did before&after it’s not much. Of course for the western medias it’s an irrecoverable trauma, we can spin things how we want, ignoring the victim’s point of view while only presenting the tormentor’s grievances.
And if you ask them, they’ll say that they’ve exposed the palestinian suffering, while most of it stays hidden except on social medias(, who have to be “regulated”). But i’ll admit that the western media coverage could have been worse, and won’t deny that it shifted its critical stance towards Israel after a while.

while preparing under the nose of the most advanced surveillance state in history

I.d.k., perhaps, but at the same time they trained with paragliders, Egypt even warned Israel in advance. The theory that Israel let it happen because it gave them a cassus belli doesn’t seem that foolish either, who knows…

In any case Oct.7th wasn’t much compared to the deaths of these past decades, and the palestinian cause wouldn’t have been much more advanced without it, we(sterners) are just letting the number of illegal colonies grow with the time while claiming that we support a “two-states solution”.

It’s probably not your thing to think about Israel’s interests, but what solution would please both sides in your opinion and stop this destruction ? Again, no point in arguing for a solution that Israel would refuse, there are more than one option that could please both sides, even if people aren’t discussing them. It’s probably a useless question to ask you, but it seems to me that this question is more pertinent than every other discussion we could have.

• There’s the option of giving western territories to palestinians and israelis in exchange for a third of the current territory Israel+Palestine(, while muslims keep a third and jews another third), which could be accepted if the territories offered are worth it, it could bring our cultures closer to each other, and would be accompanied with billions of dollars for palestinians through a one-time global tax, etc.
• There’s the option of a common territory, with a dual governance and a control of the number of jews and muslims.
• There’s the option of jewish people embracing islam and keeping each of their books and traditions by simply becoming a specific sect of islam with their many particularities, promising to align themselves with the interest of the muslim community etc., they’d gain more population/power and territories that they could ever get through this alliance
• There are weirder options like giving an extraterrestrial territory, such as Mars, to muslims in order to compensate for the loss of the sacred lands, but promises are cheap anyway.
• I could probably find 3-4 more if i look into my memories/‘past notes’, but i’d be interested in what solutions you could find that, once again, could please both sides according to you.

Thanks in advance if you’re interested in this less pointless task than a discussion on Oct.7th

The idf is directly and indirectly responsible for nearly every civilian who was killed

I’ve heard that they killed dozens or even perhaps a hundred at most, but never that they killed nearly everyone of them, unfortunately i guess that there’s no way of proving that ?
I don’t think that civilians are innocent, i’m from France and already said that during the attacks on France by i.s.i.s. : we’re paying for the bombs that are killing their families, and for the salaries of those meddling in their affairs overseas, in order to put in place a regime closer to our interests, instead of choosing to establish a permanent security for everyone, uniting in diversity, etc… Not that civilians constitute a legitimate threat/target to defend against, and even the military personnel should be captured if possible since we should strive to treat others as if 'they were ourselves/‘we were one’(, in practice and not only in theory).
Just to say that i’ve followed a bit of what Max Blumenthal released on this subject but i don’t remember him ever going higher than 100 civilians(, no ?), and anyway, compared to the number of civilians that Israel killed prior to the 7th of October it’d be hypocritical on my part to throw an accusation, i just thought that this ratio was somehow linked to the most commonly accepted definition of terrorism, but quickly (re)confirmed that they don’t even pretend to give a definition to this term, or when they do it’s obviously applicable to ourselves, pfff…

Anyway, i doubt that anyone can prove that assertion, even if you cited much more than one proof of israelis responsible for some of these deaths, but if anyone could i’d be glad to stand corrected.

There were over 200 resistance fighters who’s bodies were mistaken for civilians because they were burned beyond recognition along side civilians.

Yes, that’s true, thank you for the reminder ! It’s obviously suspicious that out of the 1195 bodies on which Israel has claimed to have conducted DNA tests, they didn’t name a single Hamas member, like they’re not even trying to hide that they included them, i.d.k., i found that article from 2 months ago so apparently they didn’t identify everyone : https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/2392615/grim-350-bags-of-human-remains-from-october-7-still-await-identification.html

The table that i cited above only counted 732 identified victims out of the 1195, but even if my point was more around searching what qualifies someone as terrorist, and would legitimate such or such actor/action, i thank you for your informations.

So :

• no guarantee that the “war” will end after these 60 days ;
• no specific dates or maps for the israeli withdrawal ;
• almost certainly an obligation for palestinians to give up their weapons, and for the israeli colonization/destruction of what remains of Palestine to continue.

Let our medias claim once more that it’s these “terrorists” who refuse peace, while never once inviting any of them.

They could ask for other muslims to swear that if Israel resume the ‘unilateral slaughter’/“war” after this ceasefire, then they will finally intervene to protect them, i.d.k…

Update : Israel refuses to let the u.n. distribute aid despite proofs that they’re killing every single day innocent civilians, and they also confirm their refusal of any withdrawal. These are basic demands and Israel refuses them, what can they do if Israel refuses them ? They need external help or something, but Israel never ceased to demonstrate their bad faith.

https://www.axios.com/2025/07/04/hamas-israel-hostage-negotations

Israel feels legitimate to ask for the disarmament of Gaza, yet doesn’t want to stop occupying/destroying Palestine so the palestinians are left with no other choice, that’s an inattackable argument justifying Hamas’ violence since peaceful means ‘were attempted’&‘lead to nowhere’.
It’s known, although we may have forgot, that Fatah reacted favorably to the Oslo accords in 1993&1995, they stopped the hostilities and even recognized Israel, they also disarmed the militias by only keeping an official police force(, from wiki : « the group disengaged from armed conflict against Israel around the time of the Oslo Accords, when it recognised Israel, which gave it limited control over the occupied Palestinian territories. »). And where did that lead them ?
Netanyahu and Israel just trampled the Oslo accords when he came into power after Yitzhak Rabin’s assassination in 1995, by unapologetically expanding their colonization of Palestine, leading to the existence of Hamas and the discreditation of the ~naive Fatah(, cf. the link above for a short timeline).
The only moments when Israel and Palestine were walking towards peace was when the greedy Netanyahu wasn’t in government(, e.g. the accords of camp David in 2000).
Just to say that it’s false to claim that the palestinians were the ones refusing a two-states solution(, even Hamas only asks for the 1967 borders in its 2017 charter !(, art.20)), that it could never have happened only because of them, that’s another lie, history says otherwise.
That’s the wrong instance to debate such things by preaching to the choir, so w/e.

As of 17 January[ 2024], analysis of satellite data by Corey Scher of the City University of New York and Jamon Van Den Hoek of Oregon State University reveals that between 50% and 62% of all buildings in Gaza have likely been damaged or destroyed.

I had a discussion yesterday with someone who thought that Israel had no choice so i argued that if that was the case then the rightists wouldnt have assassinated Yitzhak Rabbin, they wouldn’t have feared that the peace process succeed, that solutions are available but we’re not discussing them, etc. etc. And then in the evening my twitter feed led me to this link which i felt worth including here.
It’s hard not to think that left vs. right is simply good/nice/ empathetic/… vs. bad/selfish/“realist”/…

Also, it’s annoying but we’re still hearing, even almost 2 years later, that if Hamas released all hostages then the “war” would end immediatly, that is such bullshist, so easily debunkable, so here are some examples illustrating that we’re being ‘lied to’/ manipulated :

• 18th October, 2023 : Hamas Ready To Release All Hostages If Israel Stops Bombing Gaza ;
• November 2023 : What’s blocking has never been the released of the hostages, even at the beginning, if you remember the ~first peace talks :
  «Talks between Israel and Hamas have been stymied by disagreement over whether a ceasefire should include an end to the war. Hamas says a ceasefire must include the end of the war and a full withdrawal of Israel’s military from the Gaza Strip, which Israel has refused.
  Israel says it will only end its war in exchange for the dismantling and exile of Hamas, which Hamas has refused.
  An offer had already been on the table. Hamas had reportedly offered to release all hostages in exchange for a full withdrawal of Israel’s military from Gaza and an end to the war. On Sunday, Hamas official Mahmoud Mardawi reportedly said
  Netanyahu insisted on a temporary agreement that releases only 10 hostages.
  Mardawi accused Netanyahu of setting “impossible conditions aimed at thwarting the possibility of reaching a ceasefire agreement and a deal on the hostages.” »
  It lead to an end of the truce in december 2023.
• 21st January 2024 : Once again, Hamas continues to offer to free all hostages, in exchange for palestinian hostages/“prisoners” and the end of the unilateral slaughter/“war”, and, again : «“In exchange for the release of our hostages, Hamas demands the end of the war, the withdrawal of our forces from Gaza, the release of all the murderers and rapists,” Netanyahu said in a statement. “And leaving Hamas intact.” “I reject outright the terms of surrender of the monsters of Hamas,” Netanyahu said.» ;
• 7th February 2024 : Hamas ‘freedom fighters’/“terrorists” don’t trust Israel to keep their words so ask for a progressive release, while Israel says it’ll continue until every last terrorist is dead : https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-mediators-search-final-formula-israel-hamas-ceasefire-2024-02-07
• 7th May 2024 : the peace plan is still a progressive exchange of hostages, an end of the war, but now also include humanitarian aid and an end of the blocus, while Israel stays on its position that it won’t end until every terrorist is dead, and begins the Rafah offensive ;
  (Etc., there’s no point in being exhaustive)
• 17th April 2025 : Just one more unneeded proof that Israel could have reached an agreement to recover their hostages(, instantly this time and not progressively,) but chose instead to recover them by force : https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-is-ready-release-all-remaining-hostages-return-an-end-gaza-war-hamas-gaza-2025-04-17. One does not negotiate with terrorists, or something.

So let’s not hear again and again that this war would be over tomorrow if Hamas released the hostages, because that’s a very obvious lie stemming from (y)our ignorance.

(Even if killing thousands of people to liberate hostages was the only way, you don’t do that obviously, but that’s not even the only way since they only asked for an end of the war in exchange)

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/27/palestine-and-israel-brief-history-maps-and-charts

Other examples of “terrorist” groups that never killed anyone :

Making Palestine Action a terrorist group for “injuring” war planes used in a genocide(, or a unilateral massacre of civilians for those refusing to use a word abused in Lybia or systematically in our wars,) is just further proof that terrorism doesn’t mean anything, and more&more people realize that.
And yeah, i know that it wasn’t their first actions, but we shouldn’t use the same terms&laws for those refusing to kill :

https://youtu.be/lJw0ni1Q01k

Israel has been fucking around for decades, and found out on October 7th.

Also, the pretext/‘casus belli’ for this war is so lazy, it’s not like, e.g., Pakistan and India, or the u.s.a. and Japan : Iran would never want to destroy these sacred lands nor expose palestinians to radioactivity. But w/e, we can use the most unlikely excuses and people will just believe what they’re being told, we can’t just use the real reasons apparently.

My favorite solution would be to give territories in the u.s. to muslims and in Europe to jews, in exchange for a third of Israel/Palestine to christians(, and a third to jews, and another third to muslims), i said.
Nobody even tries to seek solutions, they’re not discussed in the debates, we ignore the available options.