The fact that there are so many dislikes proves how propagandized the average American is. “How dare you call both sides the same” Well, they ojectively are pretty much the same with few exceptions.
Especially for non-Usian people, doubly especially for those on the working end of US “diplomacy” - bombs, coups and sanctions come regardless of which US administration, there is literally no difference whatsoever.
One side supports a criminal Nazi apologist who tried to overthrow our Democracy and hasn’t given up yet. The other side brings a knife to the gun fight.
They’re not even remotely the same. 40 years ago that may have been closer to true.
One side supports a criminal Nazi apologist who tried to overthrow our Democracy and hasn’t given up yet
The DNC isn’t fighting for workers. They are bringing a gun to the gunfight, they just aren’t interested in using it against the GOP, as ultimately both serve capital. The US has never been a democracy for the people.
oh god i agree with cowbee wholeheartedly in a thread of discourse…
oh god oh fuck oh shit i can feel it happening… is it warm in here?
Я чувствую, как марксизм-ленинизм просачивается в мой мозг!!! make it stop….
Теперь я чувствую себя белым и пушистым… как коммунистический медведь.
—-
anyway joking aside appreciate lemmy collectively telling neolibs to shut the fuck up bc while plenty of things .ml says piss me off, they don’t piss me off nearly as much as seeing americans who haven’t ripped the bandaid off yet.
Hey, seems like a good enough reason to start looking into Marxist-Leninist theory as any! 😉
Democrats seek to regulate said capital. The Overton window is too far right to have much effect.
Serving capital does not mean we’re not a Democracy. Attempting a coup of the government and disinformation does, however.
They only seek to regulate capital as much as their megacorp and billionaire donors wish. The “Overton Window” has nothing to do with it.
Further, if both parties serve capital, then we have democracy for capital, not for the people.
Not much argument there, but the Overton window has everything to do with it. How do you think other Democrat socialist countries got where they were? At some point they were all pretty much in our boat. I haven’t lost hope yet.
There are no “democratic socialist” countries. Democratic Socialism is a descriptor for reformist socialism, the closest we got was Salvador Allende in Chile. Socialism isn’t just “social programs,” socialism refers to a mode of production where public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy, ie the large firms and key industries. The Nordic countries are Social Democracies, welfare capitalism essentially.
The Nordic Countries have the large safety nets they do largely due to proximity with the USSR, who was the first to dramatically expand their safety nets. Combined with millitant labor organizing, these concessions in other countries forced the bourgeoisie’s hand. The problem is that these social safety nets in the global north are funded through imperialism, vast extraction from the global south.
The Overton Window has nothing to do with it. The system is dominated by capitalists, the only way to get even a fraction of what the workers want is through millitant organizing and running our own parties like PSL, the only way to actually get socialism is through revolution.
To most, Democratic Socialism and Social Democracy mean the same thing. Since actual Socialism is usually so irrelevant it requires no clarification. Since you’re an actual socialist I’m gonna doubt we have any constructive dialogue from here on out.
But for the record I don’t believe violent revolution is a winning strategy. It’s a failed experiment that killed millions and it won’t work this time either. Neither is sitting back and hoping things work out, so I can’t dock you.
Democrats seek to regulate said capital
No, they aren’t.
Serving capital does not mean we’re not a Democracy
If you think that you live under a democracy, i.e. that your government’s decisions reflect your wishes, then you should be held accountable for the genocides and invasions that your state keeps committing.
Attempting a coup of the government and disinformation does, however.
The US suffering a coup would at worst not make anything worse, including in terms of ‘democracy’.
Just wondering which country are you from?
This is some campist nonsense.
Rather, I’m arguing against “enlightened centrism”. Both sides are not the same at all, there is one party clearly better than the other. Not defending the US in general. But if everyone voted Democrat our problems would be greatly improved.
If there were two parties, one to double the slaves, and another to keep the number of slaves the same, I would vote for the second party. If everyone voted for the second party, they’d eventually be able to pitch reducing the number of slaves. But they can’t because half the country is Nazis. It’s a dirty game but it’s one worth playing, even if we use protests and other tools as well.
If there were two parties, one to double the slaves, and another to keep the number of slaves the same, I would vote for the second party.
Then you’re a fucking slavery-defending piece of shit who John Brown would have rightfully shot. You don’t have to support slavery at all, you know. You could even say “Slavery is wrong, full stop.” And then go on to do whatever is in your power to tear down any group that advocates for that grotesque abuse and denial of even the most basic human decency. But instead you insist on carrying bucket after bucket after bucket of water for the fucking slavers who are blatantly grifting you with their detestable bullshit of “at least I’m not that bad” as they point at another fucking slaver.
You people are so brainwashed into this absurd binary thinking it is genuinely shocking to me the atrocious shit that squirts out of your mouths that you think is fucking reasonable!
Rather, I’m arguing against “enlightened centrism”.
Yeah, and to do that you’ve had to engage in outright genocide denial.
Removed by mod
Rather, I’m arguing against “enlightened centrism”
Your instance has been very supportive of ‘enlightened centrism’ when it comes to colonialism vs anti-colonialism. Let’s hope that you are, in fact, opposed to that.
However, the opposition to both of the parties is not a case of ‘enlightened centrism’. They are literally both right-wing genocidal factions of rulers of NATO.
Both sides are not the same at all
In the case of USian ruling factions, the difference is just PR. And, maybe, competence in conducting genocides, invasions, and other colonialist activities.
there is one party clearly better than the other
Considering that the current administration has seemingly been making decisions that have been harmful to NATO’s ability to invade the rest of the world in the long term, it seems that the party that currently holds more power is the better one.
But if everyone voted Democrat our problems would be greatly improved
How?
If there were two parties, one to double the slaves, and another to keep the number of slaves the same, I would vote for the second party
Both of the parties are for doubling the slaves and for conducting genocides. The currently dominant one seems to be less competent when it comes to achieving those goals.
But they can’t because half the country is Nazis
Much more than that - almost all USians were in favour of invading Iraq, and I find it likely that not much has changed.
Either way, both of those parties are at least almost completely nazi.It’s a dirty game but it’s one worth playing
Why? Electoralist efforts have evidently not achieved much throughout their existence. It’s time to accept reality.
I don’t know what my instance believes, nor do I care.
I wouldn’t argue against opposing both parties, or the US in general. I’m American and I choose to vote for the party that seems substantially better. Voting correctly is important, but not enough.
Voting Republican caused Ukraine to lose its funding. I don’t side with any genocide that NATO commits but don’t forget it also protects billions of people. The game is dirty and imperfect but we should still play it to survive.
Democrat policies reduce wealth inequality, which Republican ones increase it.
All Nazis are Republicans. Few to none are Democrats.
Basically none of your arguments are rooted in truth, even slightly. I doubt you will be convinced of what I’m saying.
Voting correctly is important
Has voting ever produced any sort of serious effect in the US?
Voting Republican caused Ukraine to lose its funding
Meaning that the state of Ukraine will have less of a reason and less of an ability to avoid peace negotiations to stop the bloodshed. This is good.
but don’t forget it also protects billions of people
It literally does the opposite. It’s a colonial empire that is conducting a genocide right now and that has been invading everywhere in the world to keep billions of people in a colonial yoke. It only defends colonial metropoles and settler-colonies from justice.
Furthermore, at most, it ‘protects’ about a billion of people, and not ‘billions’.All Nazis are Republicans. Few to none are Democrats
They are almost all nazis. Even if one cares about electoralism, almost all Dems who could voted against reduction of military support for Pissrael.
It’s not really arguable that at least almost all Dems are in favour of genocides and invasions - like the ones into Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libya, and Afghanistan.Basically none of your arguments are rooted in truth, even slightly
Except for all of them.
Notably, you couldn’t even provide examples of non-nazi Dems, and lied about NATO protecting billions of people and keep lying about voting being important despite having nothing to show for it.I don’t side with any genocide that NATO commits BUT
Absolutely soulless people.
Removed by mod
Octagon9561:
proves how propagandized the average American is
PastaFARRian:
✅
Ok, explain how Democrats support Nazis that attempted a coup?
They didnt put their leader or any of the oganizers in prison for attempting a coup.
They did. They were all pardoned by Trump. Trump would have been sent to prison if he didn’t win the election. Our Democracy is working, it reflects the idiocy of over half our population who voted for everyone to jump off a cliff.
When I walk around, over half the people I talk to support Trump. The other half is actively fighting against it. That’s not support. We’re merely losing.
Trump would have been sent to prison if he didn’t win the election.
Trump would never have had the chance if Biden elected an AG who didn’t spend 4 years fucking around.
The other half is actively fighting against it
Its a shame the democrats dont represent those people and chose not to dismantle Trump’s ICE and instead tried to work with republicans.
Yes. We’re losing, and fucking badly.
Ukraine
Democrats want to keep funding for Ukraine. Republicans want to remove it. Can you be more specific?
One side supports a criminal Nazi apologist who tried to overthrow our Democracy and hasn’t given up yet.
And the other side commits genocide. It also overthrows other people’s democracy, but you don’t consider foreigners human.
https://www.inss.org.il/publication/democrats/
Most Democrats express greater sympathy for Palestinians. That’s not what I would call “committing genocide”. What I see is Democrat officials expressing support, but powerless against Republicans who do not. That’s not supporting genocide. We’re fighting, but losing.
Most Democrats express greater sympathy for Palestinians. That’s not what I would call “committing genocide”.
Committing genocide is committing genocide. What the fuck is wrong with you?
What I see is Democrat officials expressing support, but powerless against Republicans who do not.
Then you had your eyes closed for all of 2024
That’s not supporting genocide. We’re fighting, but losing.
Genocide denier
Removed by mod
Ok, I’ll return your argument strategy exactly as you stated it: [Some thing that in no way resembles anything I said]
You people really cannot behave in good faith, can you?
If not, you are a genocide denier and had your eyes closed for all of 2025. What the fuck is wrong with you? You shameful asshole. People are dying and you don’t even give a fuck. You have nothing more to say that I care about until you personally feed an affected person. Hypocrite."
Incoherent. But I guess I shouldn’t expect more from a genocide apologist fuck like you.
Removed by mod
“Which side are you on?”
The “two party” system is on the same side.
The center section is too small and should take up 95% of the total area.
“America is one party state. However in the typical American exuberance, they have two of them”
We have to have two, to keep the masses fighting, thinking one will bring change the other can’t. It takes the eye off the ball from the oligarchs, industrial war machine, the three rogue letter spy agencies, and most of all the Zionist influence. Brain-dead voters will scream across the isle at each other, “but my candidate is slightly better than your candidate!” Logic has left the room.
And that stuff about abortion shouldn’t even be there after they didn’t do anything for it.
Really the only thing that needs to be put in the “Democrats only” section is: Lip Service. It sums up every issue they are supposedly “better” on.
Last election the uncomitted wanted basically only lip servce but didn’t get even that.
the rights were appealed under genocide Joe
… By the Supreme Court Trump packed?
After the dems didn’t codify it in law even though they had control
“The United States, too, has a single party system. But in typical American extravagance they have two of them.”
The uni-party trash system.
You don’t have to agree with everything, but there’s a lot of truth in this diagram. Both are serving AIPAC, both don’t care about woking class, both want to collapse the US with infinite military spending,…
US Democracy = Vote Far Rights or Fascists to combat this terrible Comunism, wearing shirts in Stars and Stripes design. Neo-liberal feudalism
My parents are lifelong Democrats. When I ask them questions about any specific policy, they are vehemently against if it involves raising taxes even slightly. Voting Democrat makes them feel better about themselves. They always ask me to fill their ballots in, I have to refuse and lecture them every time. They love CNN.
deleted by creator
I fucking hope, but we already seen that at 1st Trump term and after Biden was elected entire EU again got back to licking US boot, including something as unbelivable as fully allowing nordstream sabotage.
deleted by creator
It don’t though, it just rises the price of energy because the gas still flows, even more than before, just from USA, Norway and yes, sill Russia, even more of it, but through middlemen. The sabotage also caused significant ecological catastrophe in the Baltic.
About the sabotage itself you have three versions available:
- Truth, that USA bombed it, possibly with participation of Norway (note above paragraph, curiously the very same countries that gained the most on it, qui bono, eh?)
- USA version, where Ukraine did it, despite lacking means
- Official German/EU version, that is no version, because both above versions means that Germany is either vassal (ver1) or war ally (ver2) of country which attacked Germany in a biggest peacetime sabotage in German history.
Didn’t Biden basically announce the US was gonna do it before it happened?
Yup, and immediately after Polish Foreign Minister Sikorski, closely related to atlanticist circles, thanked USA for that.
Isn’t he married to Anne Applebaum?
Yes, as i mentioned, closely related to atlanticist circles.
deleted by creator
libs be believing dem politicans lip service when they never do anything about it, but the one time their politician says something and actually does it, they don’t believe it.
When you put it that way, it is pretty unbelievable that a US politician would follow through on a promise 🤔
deleted by creator
Its funny when Eurobros pretend they’re not US lackeys.
deleted by creator
He says that because you weren’t paying as much tribute as he would like, which is why he ordered you to increase military spending and y’all went and did it, and then had Mark Rutte kiss his ass in appreciation. 😂
Bullshit. German politics is riddled with the same talking points as the US. Just today i read a german article talking about a “german roe v wade”
deleted by creator
Isn’t Germany pro-genocide across the political spectrum?
In seiner Stellungnahme gegenüber „t-online.de“ führte Reimer weiter aus, dass er Brosius-Gersdorf, deren Wahl vor einer Woche aufgrund mangelnder Unterstützung innerhalb der Unionsfraktion ausgesetzt worden war, als Aktivistin wahrnehme, „die über eine Neuinterpretation des Grundgesetzes ein deutsches ,Roe v. Wade‘ erreichen will“. Darin sehe er einen „Bruch mit der gesamten bisherigen Rechtsprechung des Bundesverfassungsgerichts zu Art. 2 Abs. 2 GG“. Jener Artikel besagt: „Jeder hat das Recht auf Leben und körperliche Unversehrtheit. Die Freiheit der Person ist unverletzlich. In diese Rechte darf nur auf Grund eines Gesetzes eingegriffen werden.“
Republicans just convinced Europe that the USA cannot be trusted anymore
FYI: in the EU we don’t play the “it was Biden vs it was Trump” game. We stop at “it was the US”.
What?
deleted by creator
You literally just said that it was because of Republicans that the EU soured on the US and now you’re telling me that in the EU you don’t look at which party is in charge but at the US as a whole. Do you not see how these statements are contradictory?
Which is a good thing
No, that one belongs in the shared space too. It was Biden who literally bombed the infrastructure that made it possible for Germany to meet its energy needs without reliance on buying US oil/lng. Who froze all foreign assets that belonged to Afghanistan, essentially stealing billions of dollars that belonged to the Afghani people? Biden. Who froze all Russian assets and tried to make it illegal on a global scale to do business with “the bad guy” state? Biden. And while you may hate Russia if you’re a typical propagandized westerner, that doesn’t mean most of the rest of the world, particularly global south countries, do as well.
From 3 years ago:
“With Russia losing access to its foreign currency reserves, a message has been sent to all countries that they can’t count on these money stashes to actually be theirs in the event of tension. As such, it may make less and less sense for global reserve managers to hold dollars for safety, given that they could be taken away right when they’re most needed. Russia isn’t the first country to get this lesson in recent months. The Biden administration’s move to seize Afghanistan’s cash assets and prevent their access by the Taliban was another recent signal that reserves can be frozen.”
That was all thanks to the Democrats during the Biden regime. Trump is putting as many nails into that coffin as he can, but we shouldn’t pretend Republicans are the only ones responsible for showing the world that the dollar is dangerous and the US cannot be trusted.
deleted by creator
European here and before this last Trump term nobody cared about the US, nor knew what people did over there.
I’m also European and this is bullshit lmao
deleted by creator
excluding wars?
Why? Why should wars be excluded?
deleted by creator
Yes. But how are you justifying that caveat?
Europeans may be a bit slow on the uptake, considering much of Europe is still imperial core and it’s all still the global north, but just because European liberals have been struggling to let go of the propaganda that the U.S. is a benevolent force for “order” in the world doesn’t mean that it is suddenly Trump alone that has irrevocably damaged U.S. soft power as well as a positive image of the U.S. in Europe.
and the nonsense of vaccines and Medicare
More examples of issues that were major in the “discourse” under Biden (and earlier). Come on.
Some people and companies are actively seeking alternatives to American products, we are talking about an European tech stack for the first time, a multi billion program just started to replace US in defence, there are funds specifically designed to attract American scientists, the EU is coming for startups too, and intense chats with Canada, China and others try to replace the US market.
And a lot of this takes longer planning than just the 6 months Trump has been in office again. You may not have been aware of it, but many were (I may not be a European, but I have been speaking with plenty of them especially since February of '22). The U.S. has been advertising the fact that its is tightening its leash on its vassals (you Europeans) for a while now, which in turn is unintentional but unconcealable admission that its empire is struggling. Those with eyes to see it, and there are many, most certainly have been watching since long before Trump. I won’t argue that Trump hasn’t ramped it up in terms of how blatant it is with his overt buffoonery and open fascism (as opposed to the Democrat’s false pretense of not being fascist), but to say it’s something that the Democrats do not share in, or haven’t deeply contributed to just as Trump has, well you’re burying your head in the sand.
I honestly don’t mean offense by this because it is so heavily dependent on what you hear in your MSM, but you and those who think this is new are slow on the uptake when compared to Europeans who closely follow this sort of thing, and Europe on the whole considering its relationship to US imperialism is going to be slow on the uptake compared to the rest of the world. And if we’re talking about the rest of the world beyond Europe already knowing these things, well let me just say: BRICS+. But honestly, if you think that even European leaders didn’t take a major fucking lesson from the blowing up of Nordstream, you’re… well, I guess just living under the same rock most of the population who gets their news from major outlets are living under - still doesn’t change the fact that the absolute dismantling of U.S. soft power and power projection (as “defenders” or as a country with whom deals and promises will be kept) is 100% a bipartisan project.
deleted by creator
One characteristic of the European politics is that it’s slow. Painfully slow.
The glacial pace of European politics helps prove my point. The fact that the pace is slightly quickening may or may not be because of Trump - like I said, I certainly wouldn’t argue against his undeniable increasing of the already rapidly deteriorating global image of the US as being trustworthy, but the whole point is that that deterioration was already happening when he got into office. Your original position is that it was not, that the Europeans feeling that the US cannot be trusted anymore and that the image of the dollar’s supremacy was waning, that all of that rests entirely on the shoulder of the Republicans when that is just demonstrably not true.
That said, you are free to think that with Biden it was all the same (or even worse).
You’re shifting the goalposts a bit there, since I never claimed it was “the same” only that it was already clearly well underway, which I have maintained throughout. Yes, I am free to recognize the objective reality of the situation, just as you are free to, for whatever odd reason, push against it to mistakenly insist that Trump is some sudden and unique outlier in the collapse of US image and power projection when that has demonstrably been going on since before him and will continue after, even if he is ramping up the rate of deterioration.
deleted by creator
you imply that mine is totally wrong.
As opposed to fucking what? Implying their own opinion is wrong? Implying that two mutually exclusive things are simultaneously true? The very definition of having an opinion means you think opposing opinions are wrong!
it’s slow unless it’s about increasing military spending and support for Israel, then it’s very fast!
Vote for the Demublicans, not the Repemocrats!
So, so American!
add gay vs god to the outsides
maybe something on immigration and racism
maybe something on immigration and racism
That goes in the intersection.
One side created secret police and are kidnapping people off of the streets to put into concentration camps. End of fucking discussion.
lmfao Obama vastly expanded the surveillance programs Bush started after 9/11 https://time.com/3909293/edward-snowden-obama-nsa-spying/
You’re an ignoramus and you should be ashamed of yourself. End of fucking discussion.
Biden didn’t shut down any of the ICE concentration camps Trump opened the last time he was president.
Also Guantanamo Bay has had bipartisan support since the beginning.
Liberals continue to demonstrate they don’t consider foreigners human
And the other side was in power for 4 years but did nothing to prevent this from happening
